Karpat: Military education system blocking path to democracy

Said Karpat, “What we are dealing with now is the result of this culture. Without making changes to military education, we will not be able to lift the barriers that block the progress of democracy in Turkey.” Asserting that the greatest gift a military can give to the people of the nation is for the people to rule themselves, Karpat said, “Men like Washington and Lincoln, who formed one of the great democracies of the world, were themselves military-oriented, but they are remembered today for the modern societies and democracies they helped form.”

This historian goes on to note that while Turkey was built on a foundation of democracy, that democracy is in fact trampled under foot every day now in Turkey. He also insists that no nation in the world has been able to achieve true civilization under a military tutelage.

Karpat, a history professor who is the same age as the Turkish Republic itself, received this year's Parliament Award of Honor. Though Karpat has written countless articles, been published in more than 20 countries and penned many different books, he is not well known in Turkey and thus this award was also a sort of consolation. Even as a child, Karpat was accustomed to being found strange by his close circles because of the extremely unique viewpoints he brought to various situations. Later, he decided to devote his life to explaining Turkey's various values to the world. Karpat, who has often used scientific data to bring changes to some of the set beliefs imposed for years by “official history,” believes personally that Turkey has taken some important steps towards democracy in recent years. In this sense, the professor finds the concepts of “neighborhood pressure” and “the headscarf ban” ridiculous, and notes that everywhere else in the world, people are free to wear headscarves as they wish in educational institutions.

Karpat, despite his now rather advanced age, continues to teach in the history department at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. We had a chance to speak with him about his personal life and about the democracy test that Turkey seems to be having a difficult time passing these days.

When you return to Turkey from America, does a sense of hopelessness ever overtake you at Turkey's situation? Do you ever think, “Turkey is still in the same spot I last saw it in, stuck forever, turning in a vicious cycle of sorts?”

 No, I am very hopeful. Don't forget that at its roots, this society has a wealth of brain energy, a desire to progress and a desire to express itself, all of which has built up over hundreds of years. I have seen very few societies with all these characteristics. What we have in Turkey is a nation which has been scorned by Europe for years, which history has struck out at, and some Turks have allowed this to happen, although I have never believed these things. And I have personally made it my own goal to prove to the world that Turks are not like this. I promised myself early on that I would go to the West, see that I was accepted there and have my story of Turkish history accepted there. I am not a racist. I also do not like radical nationalism. But I do have some deep-rooted beliefs. I stand up for my people and the essential roots of our history. I have ancestors who died at the borders to sacrifice themselves for the state. Anyone with a past such as mine could be no different than what I am now.

How is Turkey to break its own molds? 

With democracy. The main stream that will clear the way forward for Turkey is democracy because it is democracy which allows people's real abilities to shine, and by allowing these abilities through they allow the value of people to be underscored. Real freedom is not screaming and yelling in city squares or casting votes. These are simply vehicles of freedom and democracy. Democracy is built upon personality, upon people. So what democracy really does is allow people to become self-aware, to advance into maturity and to open up to the world around them. Going even further, democracy allows the people of a nation to choose how it will lead itself, through its own volition. And democracy recognizes no greater strength and power than the will of the people of the nation. As it is, it was upon this principle of democracy that the Turkish Republic was formed. From the Constitution of 1921 until the 1982 Constitution, it was understood that the people ruled everything. At the same time, this principle, which has been around since the formation of the republic and which Atatürk believed in from the depths of his heart, is constantly trampled. 

Civilization cannot be achieved under military tutelage

What do you think of the action plan to finish off the AK Party [Justice and Development Party] and Gülen movement, a document which completely discounts the will of the people? 

What this document shows is that the coup mentality still exists in certain circles of Turkey. It shows the existence of a train of thought that is focused on coups and at the same time the prevalence of the belief that “we are better than everyone, we know better than everyone” in these same circles.

Of course, these are the kinds of thoughts that violate the basic principle of democracy. It doesn't really matter who is behind this document because what it openly shows is that this mentality continues to exist. In the end, though, there is no doubt that this mentality is to the detriment of everyone. Those who embrace these sorts of ideas, and act upon them, are always hurt in the end. This is inevitable. Nowhere in the world has a society under military tutelage achieved civilization. And every military regime in the end collapses, giving way to democracy.

Why are we always subjected to these same sorts of events, despite the fact that the greater truth stands clearly before us?

 Because there actually is a culture which is busy preparing these scenarios for us. We are now dealing with the results of this culture. Actually, what we really need to be focused on is changing this culture, which is so critical in nurturing these stances. The basic shape of democracy does exist in Turkey; however, there are really no steps being taken to develop democracy, there is no system of education on this front. The educational system in Turkey must be changed. You cannot lift the barriers blocking the way forward for democracy today in Turkey without changing the system of military education. This is just so clear. But this is not even a topic of debate in Turkey these days. There is no doubt that the most powerful institution in Turkey is the military. Well, of course, Turkey's strength is in proportion to the power and strength of its own military. But the military needs to be a military that is united with the people. And this is what democracy brings about. The world's most powerful military exists in a place like America. But this military at no time says things like “I am going to manage the country.” To the contrary, in fact, the military always stands before civilian management and asserts that it is subject to the will of civilians. This is why everyone in America loves the military, to a level that is unbelievable: Because in a sense, it is America's guarantor. No one fears the military, nor do they really criticize it. What we have created in Turkey is a dualism of the military on one hand and the people of the nation on the other. And everyone is harmed by this. We need to instead create relations between the military and the people that are based upon real love and respect.

This morning I read a few pages taken from speeches by Atatürk. Atatürk at no point ever said, “This nation is to be managed by the military.” In fact, he always stated things to the contrary of this. Great men like Washington and Lincoln, who created great democracies, were also oriented towards the military. But they are now remembered for the modern societies and democracies they set up. Look at what Napoleon, one of the greatest soldiers the world ever saw, left behind as his legacy. Napoleon was a military genius. But he ruined Europe and France. The greatest gift a military can give to the people of the nation is to allow them to rule themselves.

How did you learn you would be receiving the Parliament Award of Honor? 

I was coming home from the hospital, in the midst of great pain. My nephew saw the news on the Internet and told me. And later a friend of mine called me and confirmed the news.

What sort of emotions did you experience on this occasion?

 Well, it was a great pleasure. I felt very honored because the work and research I have done for so many years really weren't known in Turkey. In Europe and in America, my name is quite well known. I have never sought to make myself better known or anything like that. My main goal through life has been to do things that would help Turkey and the Turkish people. Those who know me have appreciated this. But of course, it has been very pleasing in the end to have my work recognized in Turkey and to be honored by this award. In the end, we are a people who believe in merit, and we accept and uphold everything that highlights rights, beauty and humanity. Sometimes we kick up a lot of dust, screaming and yelling, but in the end, the water settles and becomes clear, and that which we really care about rises to the top and we accept it. 

‘Neighborhood (mahalle) pressure is ridiculous’

 Why do we have such difficulty embracing each other's differences? Or do you accept the existence of the alleged “neighborhood pressure” in Turkey?

 We will overcome the problems of these differences by talking about them. But the whole concept of “neighborhood pressure” is really ridiculous. It is impossible in a society which has changed so much. Of course, I am not trying to say that extremes don't exist in Turkish society. But the radical fringes really remain so marginalized in Turkey. They are a powerless minority. And the best system for proving that they are only a weak minority is through a democracy based on honest elections. We have watched people who used to get 20 percent of the vote in our elections dwindle away to only 2 percent of the vote.

What do you think about the headscarf issue in Turkey?

There could never be as meaningless and damaging a topic for debate than the one over the “turban,” or headscarf, in Turkey. If only we could have devoted the time and energy we've spent debating the headscarf to some other topic, we might have really achieved some positive results. Why do we waste so much time dealing with basic symbols and outwards appearance?

So your reaction to Turkey's tendency to spend lots of time on matters like this…?

Well, the truth is that over the past four years, Turkey has entered into a period change on many fronts. Turkey has tossed away its old, stultified forms and is about to take its real shape. This is true not only on the art front but also where science and politics are concerned. 

Özal opened Turkey up to real democracy  

Turgut Özal was the person who opened us up to liberalism and real democracy. Özal proclaimed openly that he was not only religious but a member of the Nakşibendi sect. But at the same time Özal was also someone who perceived that the needs of people who understand the West and the world at large needed to be met, and he was someone who did whatever needed to be done for the good of humanity. He believed in science and technology, in institutions, in personal freedom and in Turkey. From this perspective, Özal was an example of the “religious man-secular state” model. After his death, people who not only did not understand this way of thinking, but who didn't even know this way of thinking existed tried to lead Turkey. I don't even care to name who these people were.

And finally, through the experiences of the people of the nation, and through a certain inner awareness, the AK Party was voted leading party. Today there is a democracy in place in Turkey different from what we have seen in the past. Despite enormous economic troubles, Turkey has been able to make its way through the crisis with very light damage. All of this is true. At the same time, there is talk of coup plans. Secularism, some say, is at risk. But Turkey is secular today. It has been secular since its start. There are groups which have turned secularism into a flag for themselves and who aim to become political powers using this, but these groups are not only not secular, they are not really democratic, either.